Draconic Summit Autumn 2022 - panel-discussion-2

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(•Luunaathh’sstrreiii•) pinned a message to this channel. 26/10/2022 4:25 pm

Henlo!

6:59 pm

I’m excited for the stream!! partywurmple

7:00 pm

No worries!

Food is important both for dragons and cats.

There seems to be a chat attached right to the vc too? Should we use that one so we can split screen watch?

Oh yeah, we can do that!

7:01 pm

moves to the bubble chat

Mousing over the vc shows a text bubble button to click to join that one

Hello!

What show?

9:36 pm

Where's the chat?

(•Luunaathh’sstrreiii•) ↩️

Reply to: moves to the bubble chat

It’s in the vc! It should be on the top right corner!

On mobile too? I can't see anything for that atm

9:43 pm

It looks like this

It’s on mobile! It’s the the button on the top right!

9:44 pm

The three dots thing might have the bubble chat

9:45 pm

Oh, I think you can also swipe left and see the bubble chat

9:45 pm

In the vc

ah... Oops We accidentally missed it Our wi Fi turned off on us

Sorry!! But I do believe theres another art stream in a couple hours

We can use this panel chat for our next panel!

I'll be in the VC once I finish my dinner

Alrighty!

I can see it fine

i can see it!

I can see

I can see it!

Same here!

9:59 pm

No worries!

Super interesting!

so sorry if you guys hear me leaving and joining, my connection is not great lmao

No worries!

Gotta hop out of the panel real quick but I'll be back!

I find Jung's theories much more consistent than Freud's... I feel Freud fails to explain things to asexual beings like me.

Freud had some interesting ideas, but I agree he was too fixated on... ahem certain things. Still, he laid a groundwork for others to build on. Or rip up and reconstruct, in some cases.

i think Freud just had a lot of fetishes and didn't realize not everyone feels that way lmao

Well my first hit on that picture (I don't have a mic) is "That's actually two men, one of them is simply not wearing 'traditional' western male garb."

I see people who once were in love, but lost contact with each other, although they still want to love each other

honestly i didn't have a first impression. the image feels somehow empty to me?

I'm mostly feeling irritated by it. They want to kiss but they actually can't... seem to be hindered somehow, I guess?

Idk if you've moved on from the picture but I feel comforted by that image ? Like they only really know each other and block out the dark surroundings At the same time it's suffocating though

My first thought of him not painting the face is that, he simply hated painting faces. There are things I just find creative ways to avoid drawing when I make art because I don't enjoy drawing that part. But trauma would also make sense.

I feel that.... He is in a cycle. He can only see himself, the back of his head. Over and over again

this one feels like dissociation, like he can't actually feel himself and can only see himself from the outside

I think the person doesn't recognize themselves

I feel like this person can't see himself, doesn't know who he is.

10:31 pm

@Amber your interpretation is very interesting, the idea of "is it not really a mirror?"

The one on the right seems.. A lot more creepy to me.

Oh I love Dali... these look fascinating, confusing, sometimes a bit disturbing. But often also somewhat funny.

Honestly, "The Dark Game" is unsettling for me because it resembles many of my most chaotic and nonsensical dreams, which I often have when I am sick or otherwise under stress in the waking world. I often cannot stay asleep for very long when having dreams of that naturel.

Something unsettling on the right

Hm

They give me the same feels

These give me more a feeling of ambient and vague confusion and interest

it's interesting that the "subject of the title" of the giraffe is in fact, almost a background image. While the Dark game is presented a very abstract, but direct way

feels like when i am half asleep and my brain gets overloaded with nonsense

I'm hardly unsettled, haha

Oh wow that's allot of emotions to be honestly It reminds me of an unsettling feeling And when I'm deep in my dreams. The kind when I just watch what's around me. Almost calming. Controlled chaos?

I may not be able to make the second half, I have some chores I need to get to, but maybe I can drop in later. Great panel though!!

It will be recorded! So even if you want to watch it for a 2nd time later

3

10:40 pm

And I'm sry for the "aehms" and "ruffles", I'm not a native english speaker ^..^"

You're doing great for a non-native speaker x3

4

a very wonderful start of a great panel. I greatly enjoyed the different culture aspect. I have written small blog piece of how I interpret dreams and it is interesting the many points I wrote down popped up. I am in fact asian, so perhaps that shaped my view as well

I could understand you well

Don't worry, you're doing a great job! ~~I couldn't do what you do~~

ah. We got here late, but we've enjoyed what we heard so far.

10:42 pm

I'll have to listen back for some things

T-2min !

Welcome back!

Yep! Ready!

excited for this!

Hi

It's all fine!

still here!

Yeah it is still good.

That's what I meant by "risky paths".. for me, I want to open all the doors. No matter what.

11:21 pm

Yep, fair enough!

"The concept of dragons pales" does confuse me as well.

perhaps it is a species even beyond what is generally defined as "dragons"

That's how I read it. That the term "dragon" doesn't fully cover the experience.

If I take it bluntly maybe if you explore this there might be more to their identity than it currently is.

focus on the dragon part

Haha that's definitely my issue too dragonscrem

Yeah, good catch. Biases are both obvious and also somehow hard to catch at the same time.

the ritual part is interesting, but it is a sort of vagueness whether the dreamer is the object of sacrifice, or the subject of inspection/tests, or perhaps the subject of reverence itself

I think it's so easy to assume everything is what we want it to be. Biases are so tough to escape.

very positive

intrigue, as my general initial emotion towards most dreams

Sort of confusing actually for me. Everything feels a bit vague and open to interpretation.

I would be excited to have a dream like this. Its transformational, the beings seem to bring answers and a symbolic initiation

^ Definitely

I’m still here!

It's fascinating that you have to keep it wide open. This is different to dream interpreters I've seen here and there before where each component has a definite meaning if that makes sense. I think keeping it open and seeing if things 'resonate' or feel right seems to allow for development or something.

When I hear the word “scrigma” I think of residual energy of some kind for some reason.

I'm back!

This dream already sounds so pretty

That dream has a lot to unpack going on in it. My first impressions were that it reminded me of Balto II: Wolf Quest, wherein the main character meets the spirits of various totem animals and each one, in its own way, teaches her something, until by the end of the story she has been prepared for her destiny as the leader of a wolf pack.

this is giving me a impression of a "quest of the self"

To me it feels like someone is analyzing their place in an ecosystem of sorts and their relationship with the beings of that ecosystem (to be pretty general about it)

each spirit is a short of teacher, a guide, to lead the dreamer towards a certain understanding

The bear is not aggressive in its play wrestling, and the fox also seems to be more playful. It feels like the need to kill the last sick wolf is also not quite so deathy?

I saw the death of the wolf maybe being the metaphoric "killing" of a past version of the dreamer's self. The sick wolf doesn't serve them anymore?

I like to think the spirits of the animals are representative of connections come and gone

Oh my, to me that dream didn't seem nearly as disturbing..

12:00 am

.. but also speculated that it could hint to a severe problem. It really depends on how you look at it.

12:02 am

Gosh, that was mindblowing!

Fascinating insight, is all I could say.

I might have to listen to the parts I missed

12:04 am

Actually, I will listen to the parts I missed

the sickness to healing interpretation in the last part is 'clicking' for me... as well as the the cold and lone wolf...

12:05 am

now that you point it out

I would say it didn't make me feel very much. A little uncomfortable, but not because it disturbed me per say, but because it spoke to me, I think. Your analysis went a lot deeper than my initial thoughts reading it, and I realized listening to you that part of it was my mind didn't want to go deeper. Because on some level I knew what I would find if I did.

Thank you for doing this panel! It was really interesting!! ^.=.^

Hey, I notice themes of masc vs. femme and "he or she" have been talked about/said a lot here; not that this isn't an interesting topic, but, how about genders outside of the masc/femme binary?

12:06 am

Thanks for the panel, btw

Thank you for doing this!

This actually helped me recognize my own biases in my dreams, great panel. :) Thanks for hosting it!

Thank you for hosting! It’s a fascinating subject, definitely inspired me to look deeper at my dreams

Yes, many thanks for putting this together and presenting it today!

:D Awesome that it's being recorded too.

Sweet, this was great! I only caught half of it but XD

Incredible panel! Inspires me to look at my dreams and inner feelings from multiple angles!

Yup we got a recording going

Thanks for the presentation! I certainly would like to give this a try at some point. You did very well.

Thank you so much!

Bye!

Thanks again! Much appreciated for your time and effort on this.

Really glad I put off a couple chores so I could catch bits of this.

needs tea for voice

Thanks for everyone attending! Was great doing it and gosh ... I was so nervous

4

5

You did great :D

12:12 am

I would be so winded and spooked after a while too ahah

The next Con, whenever it may me, I plan on doing a panel on lucid dreaming. Would the also be interesting for you ?

6

I've never been able to lucid dream, but I'm interested in the subject anyhow!

That would be nice!

I've often become lucidly aware in dreaming, but I've rarely been able to shape the dream. The last time I had a "lucid dream" it went totally wrong when I tried to summon a phoenix.

I'd be totally down for that!

The technical side in terms of audio quality, the clarity of your English, and slide deck was all great. But the topic was not something I felt like I understood much of. I joined in half way though. One of the things I'm left wondering about is what to interpret about the dreams of someone that does not experience dreams. It seems a bit taken for granted that everyone experience dreams, but is that the case? (I might have missed this if it was addressed in the first half.)

So everyone is experiencing dreams, but not all can be remembered or are accessible to your consciousness. There are ways somehow to train this: One way is to set an alarm clock during night, f.e 3am in the morning, 4am in the morning and when you wake up, try to lay still and keep your eyes closed. Is there anything? Doesn'T need to be a picture! Can well be a sound, a feeling, a taste, a smell.

12:22 am

And, as the dream comes (or at least starts) from within us, try to go to sleep with that thought in mind: I want to dream. May sound blatant, but it is effecitve.

12:25 am

And, to be fair, it was a komplex topic and it was hard to break it down. I needed to use some objective material that we've all learned from and, at best, everyone can take away and use for their own. So it was a tough task to "start from scratch" and get down to dream analysis at the core. Of course you cannot learn it comepletely within 2 hours, but see it as a starting point.

Yes, these are all technique I've seen described before about remembering dreams better. But that's not quite what I was wondering about, I was more wondering about whether we know with any degree of certainty that everyone experiences dreams.

MRI and PET studies in sleep labs have shown that everyone dreams, even if some can't remember. The brain is active when we sleep.

12:27 am

Memories get consolidated for instance during sleep

I see.

What I also find totally exciting is the following study (I have to look up the study exactly ...) A study was made of a blind child who was blind from birth and could not see anything. The child was then told to paint how it experiences its dreams. These are the pictures:

12:31 am

And this child was born blind!

12:31 am

How could it draw the sun? How could it have a sense of it ?

What I've seen repeated many times about the dreams of blind people is that they experience being blind in their dreams.

yeah, most do

Maybe they had a past life where they could see

That's super intriguing. Yeah from what I heard they often don't see, at least if born blind

https://www.the-scientist.com/science-seen/how-the-visionless-dream-50799

How the Visionless Dream

Science Seen | How the Visionless Dream Courtesy of Helder Bertolo A congenitally blind person drew this scene, which was taken from a paper about visual dreaming.1 Up until now, such images were considered the sole domain of the sighted. 1. H. Bertolo et al., "Visual dream content, graphical representation and EEG a activity in congenitally bl...

12:36 am

Thats basically the abstract: Abstract An EEG study of sleep in congenitally blind persons revealed a significant correlation between the visual activity reported during dreaming and the decrease of alpha strength recorded from the central and occipital regions of the scalp. This provides the first objective evidence that subjects who have never had visual experiences can have dreams with virtual images that are probably mediated by the activation of the cortical areas responsible for visual representations.

12:38 am

The question still is: Where do those images come from? I personally also do believe that it is possibly past lifes or access to the collective subconsciousness, but that oc is no scientific view, but rather a spiritual one

My own philosophy and understanding of the world is rooted quite strongly in the empirical; being the things which you can demonstrate with observations of reality. I value things that can demonstrate predictive power, or utility. With what you said about dream analysis, that there's no "right interpretation", what is the predictive power or utility of interpreting dreams? Because to me there doesn't seem to be any value in interpreting my dreams with the techniques you presented when there's no way to show that what I've ended up with is the "wrong interpretation".

In the end, it is up to each person to interpret his dreams. Of course, it is not the only method to find out things and processes. It is one approach, one possibility. But as with so many things, we are all different and not every approach is equally good for everyone. I have presented my approach here because it is a means for me to deal with myself in this way. In the end, the truth is inside you - subjective and usually not objectifiable. This is the limit that we cannot break through with the objective empirical sciences, which put a lot of emphasis on statistical statements and reproducibility. Similarly the uncertainty paradox in quantum mechanics: If you look too closely, you can no longer describe a system perfectly objectively.

12:57 am

If I may briefly emphasize one more thing: It is not a matter of right or wrong. Right and wrong are constructs that we impose on ourselves because we are given an ethical moral system. Right and wrong have their validity precisely when we work within this system, but they are not universal. The art of the matter is to consciously perceive the moments when to use which system and when to "look at the meta level".

2

What is your motivation for doing dream analysis?

Well there are several, I don't think I have the one big motivation. But if I were to pick the most important one, it would be that it helps me to have a better understanding of humans. It's pretty selfish, if I'm honest. But it is also fun and brings me joy and euphoria and for me it is an indicator that it can't be "wrong".

1:04 am

But of course there are several motivations and I also like to help and support others. It is not just the one thing

1:06 am

I simply see myself as a consciousness which I myself call Dragon as a being that arises from these floods.

I'm really scratching my head on this.

I'm sorry

It is sometimes hard for me to put it into words what I feel

Yes, that is difficult.

Anyway, thank you for the deep questions. it always gives me the opportunity to reflect myself upon

Likewise, it was interesting to see your presentation.

1

Maybe as a small Disclaimer for my panel: As I'm from Germany, I totally mess up with all the pronouns, simply as we don't have as many pronouns in Germany and especially when speaking english, it is very -very- hard to keep this right. So please excuse me for that, it is not meant in an excluding or offensive way y..y

I didn't catch the whole panel but I thought you managed the English language very well!

1

Yeah, but due to the nervousness and everything I'm messing up this part and I don't want to give others the feeling I don't care or anything.

That's to be expected though. Even if you speak a language natively, nerves can make your vocabulary disappear

Let's discuss my panel in here..

Oki doki!

Brb, going to reconnect from my phone

you will do amazingly!

8:04 pm

We should just need to unmute ourselves to talk since it's a vc?

oh wow that's a lot of work in one go! :0

sometimes it sneaks up on you ><

what of the believes for the dragons that are from here on earth?

Wish there was a heads up that the panel would be on the same call. I was expecting an announcement, oof, I'll listen to what I missed though

we basically just started (edited)

oh no, I'm talking about the more spiritual kind where dragon are viewed as spirits, and still present

This suggestion for an archetype really sounds like me, honestly. My base form is a formless liquid, although I am still visible.

I mean, consider in certain parts of the world, dragons are revered instead of feared

oh wyrm

1

my dragon type is a chaos dragon actually haha, though I'm still figuring out exactly what it means, what I have so far is just a force that carries to flow of change. Like how everything dies, is born, crumbles or is built. there is no morality to it, just a force of nature, or reality. (edited)

I wonder, a lot of eastern world has dragon's base line snake or serpentine. What about the western? giant lizards, but then there's snake as well

It's less of a "god" and more of a force of destruction

8:26 pm

just chipping in as a kemetic

guardian of something, whether personal hoard or govern as some guardian over a location, seems to be a big common theme

8:31 pm

SOUP

S O U P

omg

THE MAGICAL WORD

3

Soup archetype

8:38 pm

Maybe also Interesting the ethymology of the word "Dragon" :

8:38 pm

dragon (n.) mid-13c., dragoun, a fabulous animal common to the conceptions of many races and peoples, from Old French dragon and directly from Latin draconem (nominative draco) "huge serpent, dragon," from Greek drakon (genitive drakontos) "serpent, giant seafish," apparently from drak-, strong aorist stem of derkesthai "to see clearly," from PIE *derk- "to see" (source also of Sanskrit darsata- "visible;" Old Irish adcondarc "I have seen;" Gothic gatarhjan "characterize;" Old English torht, Old High German zoraht "light, clear;" Albanian dritë "light"). Perhaps the literal sense is "the one with the (deadly) glance." The young are dragonets (c. 1300). Fem. form dragoness is attested from 1630s. Obsolete drake (n.2) "dragon" is an older borrowing of the same word, and a later form in another sense is dragoon. Used in the Bible generally for creatures of great size and fierceness; it translates Hebrew tannin "a great sea-monster," and tan, a desert mammal now believed to be the jackal.

8:39 pm

Interesting that the word "Dragon" roots in "to see" or "visible". Now when you see christian creation myths, you'll find in some of the first verses: And then God created light.

From Proto-Sino-Tibetan *m-bru(ŋ/k) (“dragon; thunder”). Cognate with Tibetan འབྲུག ('brug, “dragon; thunder”). The STEDT database also lists 隆 (OC *ɡ·ruːŋ, “thunder; sound of thunder”) and 雹 (OC *bruːɡ, “hail”) as cognates. Also compare 靐 (OC *brɯŋs, “sound of thunder”) and 霹靂 (OC *pʰeːɡ reːɡ, “thunder”). This word is found in many languages of the region. Compare Proto-Hmong-Mien -roŋ (“dragon”) (White Hmong zaj), Proto-Vietic *-roːŋ (“dragon”) (Vietnamese rồng), Vietnamese thuồng luồng (“serpent-like monster”), Khmer រោង (roong, “year of the dragon”), Thai มะโรง (má-roong, “dragon; year of the dragon”), Lao ມະໂລງ (ma lōng, “year of the dragon”), perhaps also Old Turkic [script needed] (-lan, suffix denoting a wild, predatory animal) (Turkish aslan (“lion”), kaplan (“tiger”), yılan (“snake”)).

8:41 pm

Pictogram (象形) – originally a serpent with prominent whiskered mouth and eyes.

the forever mystery: what is "dragon"

I don't think there is only one answer to that question :0

8:50 pm

which is fascinating

never, the vastly different and uniqueness to each and every one of us here is the very example of that

I kinda missed the first part but it's interesting that "dragon" can be anything widely different. I'll need to listen to this again since I missed a few parts though. I also like the digging into 'kin throughout history there. Could you imagine being 'kin 2000 years ago? No internet, no ways of rapid dissemination of information.. I"d go crazy lol

when I was a child, my theory was that dragons were dinosaurs that we lived alongside lmao

Tbh same

Khéna (ze/zim/zir) ↩️

Reply to: when I was a child, my theory was that dragons were dinosaurs that we lived alongside lmao

Idk... I think there would be something. Not all people are smart enough to keep something like that to themselves, and it's actually quite hard. There must be some "Dragons" in history who were out and proud. They just didn't tell people everything. They used it as a personal symbol or something.

2

well, ancient china emperor call themselves child of dragons (edited)

Ah, 2007... Was the year the gates opened for me too when I got high speed internet. xP

2

2007 was the year I awakened, but I wouldn't find out there was a community of people like me out there for a while longer yet.

Thanks so much for the panel!

Thank you!

Was great!

thanks for the panel!

Thanks, another really interesting discussion!

This was an interesting panel, thank you!

At last a panel I could actually make it to!

Oooh good point, I know I was probably dragonish before 2007, but finding others just confirmed what I am feeling. <3

That was fun even if it was so spontaneous! Nice coffe roundtable!

I awoke in 2013 and found the community that same year but didn't interact until 2015-2016 due to some gatekeeping. Really amazing to be able to connect though, like wow!!

The fascinating aspect of awakening is, that for me, it was not a point in time. After I've gained consciouness over myself, it was like connecting the dots and since then, I always found a point in time in my youth, when I also already felt that way.

Same here, it was like a lot of things from my childhood suddenly made sense when I awakened.

The first feelings ob being not human gone back so where I was like 7or 8 or so, maybe even younger

I have never felt quite human in my whole life but I was not really aware of really being nonhuman until I became aware of my draconity in a way i couldn't deny

Oh, thanks so much to KinDD for joining... he didn't know much about my flash-panel assault either, haha

I remember once when I was I think 6 years old and in hindsight I believe what I experienced was a phantom shift. But my baby brain couldn't process it. I just remember that it was a euphoric sensation and I tried for weeks afterwards to trigger it to happen again.

Thanks for the panel!

t'was a lovely panel, I'm glad y'all did it!

It is just so great to share thought with fellow dragons. So much to learn, so much to explore

That's the mood! Thanks so much everyone! Really happy I decided to do this!

KinDD

The first feelings ob being not human gone back so where I was like 7or 8 or so, maybe even younger

For me absolutely the same, it dates back to my first memories when I was 4 years old... since that day I remember every day of my life so Incredibly clearly, and it was, feeling wise, the day I closed my eyes in the former life and awakened in the new, in the new body... I always knew who I am and what I am truly, in contrast to most there wasn't really an awakening...

Ryuu 夢化竜

From Proto-Sino-Tibetan *m-bru(ŋ/k) (“dragon; thunder”). Cognate with Tibetan འབྲུག ('brug, “dragon; thunder”). The STEDT database also lists 隆 (OC *ɡ·ruːŋ, “thunder; sound of thunder”) and 雹 (OC *bruːɡ, “hail”) as cognates. Also compare 靐 (OC *brɯŋs, “sound of thunder”) and 霹靂 (OC *pʰeːɡ reːɡ, “thunder”). This word is found in many languages of the region. Compare Proto-Hmong-Mien -roŋ (“dragon”) (White Hmong zaj), Proto-Vietic *-roːŋ (“dragon”) (Vietnamese rồng), Vietnamese thuồng luồng (“serpent-like monster”), Khmer រោង (roong, “year of the dragon”), Thai มะโรง (má-roong, “dragon; year of the dragon”), Lao ມະໂລງ (ma lōng, “year of the dragon”), perhaps also Old Turkic [script needed] (-lan, suffix denoting a wild, predatory animal) (Turkish aslan (“lion”), kaplan (“tiger”), yılan (“snake”)).

this is so interesting that it shares a root with "thunder". I feel like there are a lot of dragons that are aligned with rain and thunder (me included)

moss

this is so interesting that it shares a root with "thunder". I feel like there are a lot of dragons that are aligned with rain and thunder (me included)

exactly! especially those of eastern, asianic draconics, the element tends to be water, air, lightning instead of fire or earth of the western